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thugs-and-supercombatants [2021/09/10 11:46]
dude [Countering Thugs and SC] |
thugs-and-supercombatants [2022/12/21 17:01] (current)
cactusowl |
| ======Thugs and Supercombatants====== | ======Thugs and Supercombatants====== |
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| FIXME: add examples of supercombatants, general guide to kitting out thugs and SCs, just generally expanding on everything below | Thugs and supercombatants are the "special forces" of Dominions: commanders that, rather than merely leading troops and supporting them with magic, can directly engage and defeat enemy forces. |
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| | These are usually thought of in two pieces: the chassis (the base unit, like a ??Vanjarl?? or ??Bane Lord??) and its gear (such as a ??Frost Brand?? and ??Vine Shield??). |
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| | While the difference between a thug and a supercombatant is somewhat vague, generally thugs are less-expensive units (in both chassis and gear cost) that are deployed for a specific purpose. They are not intended to take on "all comers"; instead, they are customized to achieve their goal as cheaply as possible. SC's, on the other hand, try to be prepared for everything; this often requires a high-end chassis and expensive gear. |
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| ====Thugs==== | ====Thugs==== |
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| * A commander, recruited or summoned... | * A commander, recruited or summoned... |
| * ...that can take on [[province defence]], small armies, or other thugs, either alone or in small groups... | * ...that can take on a specific sort of enemy asset (most commonly [[province defense]], but occasionally enemy thugs or components of enemy armies)... |
| | * ...usually alone or in small groups, but occasionally as part of an army... |
| * ...in a way that's relatively resource efficient. | * ...in a way that's relatively resource efficient. |
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| As you can probably tell this covers a very wide range of possibilities. In many ways, a thug is a "you'll know it when you see it" sort of concept. Some nations have thugs which can be recruited from their capital; others rely on national or generic summons they can access with their mages. | As you can probably tell this covers a very wide range of possibilities. In many ways, a thug is a "you'll know it when you see it" sort of concept. Some nations have thugs which can be recruited from their capital; others rely on national or generic summons they can access with their mages. |
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| Thugs can range in "weight class" from the ultra light who can handle most provinces on their own but not PD dumps to the very heavy who can handle 100 PD and mage supported armies which were not expecting them. A light thug might be a ??Vanjarl?? or [[phaeacia-ma|Phaeacian]] ??Storm Captain?? with a ??Vine Shield??. A heavy thug would be a ??Jotun Skratti?? or Wight ??Bakemono Sorcerer?? with most of their slots filled with [[items|magic equipment]] and a pair of mages to fluff them with magic buffs before combat. | Building thugs requires three things: a //chassis// (a base commander, either recruited or summoned), usually forged //gear// to specialize it for the task it will do, and a //script// to prepare it on the battlefield. |
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| | For instance, a common thug task is capturing provinces defended only by [[province defense]]. As an example, a typical chassis for this is the ??Vanjarl??. Their high defense, glamour, and ability to buff with ??Mistform?? makes it extremely difficult for mundane chaff to threaten them, and a ??Frost Brand?? will let them kill PD quickly. For extra safety, they can be equipped with a ??Vine Shield?? for additional protection from melee units; humans have neither the MR to avoid the effect or the strength to break free easily. But more mundane units can thug too; even a humble Ulm ??Warrior Smith?? can use buffs like ??Ironskin?? and ??Temper Flesh?? to survive attacks from chaff. |
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| | Thugs designed to fight chaff need a way to survive and a way to kill. Survival often is based on layered defense: high protection, high defense stat, glamour, mistform, regeneration, awe, vineshield, or even ??astral shield?? all serve as different defensive layers, and a thug with multiples is far more survivable. Killing mundane troops can be done with AoE weapons like ??Frost Brand?? or even a unit's default attacks. |
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| | However, thugs can do other things too. A common role is as elite-killers, or "anti-thugs". The classic weapon for this is the ??Greatsword of Sharpness?? -- whose massive damage and armor piercing is overkill against PD but quite useful against things relying on protection or HP to stay alive. A classic anti-thug might be a Sauromatian Warrior Sorceress with a ??Greatsword of Sharpness??, casting spells like ??Elemental Fortitude??, ??Quicken Self??, or ??Mossbody?? before charging into battle. |
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| | It is critical to script thugs for the tasks they will perform. Spells like ??Quicken Self?? may be extremely helpful against other thugs, but detrimental against troops (where they will result in you fatiguing out faster). Especially when you expect opposition from things other than mundane chaff, understanding your opposition is critical so you can prepare countermeasures. |
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| | Thugs can also be "fluffed" -- buffed by other mages besides themselves who join battle with them but do not engage directly. |
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| | Thug chassis vary in "weight class"; a ??Warrior Sorceress?? or ??Vanherse?? on the low end is not very expensive, and so often operates with light equipment but in groups even against PD. Heavier thug chassis -- a ??Jotun Skratti??, ??Adon??, or even ??Oracle of the Ancients??, for instance -- are more expensive, more capable, and thus use heavier equipment to take on harder tasks. |
| ====Supercombatants==== | ====Supercombatants==== |
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| * ...by investing significant resources. | * ...by investing significant resources. |
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| Supercombatants are usually something that will come about in the late game, once the most powerful summons, buffs, and constructions have been researched. Usually only a few specific creatures have the stats and abilities needed to properly fill this role, such as the arch angels, ??Laestrygonian Tyrant??s, or some [[pretender god]]s. | Supercombatants are usually something that will come about in the late game, once the most powerful summons, buffs, and constructions have been researched. Usually only a few specific creatures have the stats and abilities needed to properly fill this role, such as the arch angels, ??Laestrygonian Tyrant??s, or some [[pretender god]]s. Some nations have recruitable chassis that straddle the line between high-end thugs and light SC's; the most famous are the ??Niefel Jarl??, ??Dai Oni??, ??Fomorian King??, and ??Basalt King??. |
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| SCs are difficult to make work in Dominions 5 - in the prior games they were easier to make and harder to kill. Due to a variety of reasons this is no longer the case. Nowadays an SC needs to be tailored to the threat they are facing - making sure to have high [[fire resistance]] versus Abysia or high [[magic resistance]] versus Bandar Log for example. | SCs are difficult to make work in Dominions 5 - in the prior games they were easier to make and harder to kill. Due to a variety of reasons this is no longer the case. Nowadays an SC needs to be tailored to the threat they are facing - making sure to have high [[fire resistance]] versus Abysia or high [[magic resistance]] versus Bandar Log for example. |
| You need a way to kill them, and you need a way to not die in the process. | You need a way to kill them, and you need a way to not die in the process. |
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| * ??Frost Brand?? ({{gems>5W}} is the most basic, clearing PD with a minimum of fuss. | * ??Frost Brand?? ({{gems>5W}} is the most basic, clearing PD with a minimum of fuss. |
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| * ??Fire Brand?? ({{gems>5F5E}}) is an upgrade. Fire damage is better than cold damage on an AoE weapon since it works on summoned skeletons; the weapon itself is [[armor piercing]] so it can work against other thugs with high protection. | * ??Fire Brand?? ({{gems>5F5E}}) is an upgrade. Fire damage is better than cold damage on an AoE weapon since it works on summoned skeletons; the weapon itself is [[armor piercing]] so it can work against other thugs with high protection. |
| * ??Horror Helm?? ({{gems>10D}}) provides fear, which can eventually rout enemy PD if you can endure their attacks for a while. | * ??Horror Helm?? ({{gems>10D}}) provides fear, which can eventually rout enemy PD if you can endure their attacks for a while. |
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| * Magic: Summoned elementals or ??Soul Vortex?? can wipe out PD reliably. | * Magic: Summoned elementals or ??Soul Vortex?? can wipe out PD reliably. In some cases, ??Fire Shield?? can also clear them out. |
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| You also need to not die to PD or light enemy squads in the area. The best way for any thug or SC to survive is to layer defenses, so that anything that gets past one must deal with another. This also makes you more robust to certain counters: if you rely solely on a high Protection statistic to not die, then some mage will wander by with ??Lightning Bolt?? and you'll be sad. | You also need to not die to PD or light enemy squads in the area. The best way for any thug or SC to survive is to layer defenses, so that anything that gets past one must deal with another. This also makes you more robust to certain counters: if you rely solely on a high Protection statistic to not die, then some mage will wander by with ??Lightning Bolt?? and you'll be sad. |
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| If your base chassis doesn't have good protection or the ability to cast ??Ironskin?? or similar, you will likely need some armor. Many armor types will provide protection plus other goodies. | If your base chassis doesn't have good protection or the ability to cast ??Ironskin?? or similar, you will likely need some armor. (Even if you do have this access, forged armor can provide even more protection.) Many armor types will provide protection plus other goodies. |
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| * ??Armor of Knights?? ({{gems>5E}}): lots of Protection for a cheap price and low encumbrance, but no other goodies. | * ??Armor of Knights?? ({{gems>5E}}): lots of Protection for a cheap price and low encumbrance, but no other goodies. |
| * ??Rainbow Armor?? ({{gems>5A5N}}): magic resistance, reinvigoration, not too much encumbrance, but low protection. Useful for thugs or for combat mages. | * ??Rainbow Armor?? ({{gems>5A5N}}): magic resistance, reinvigoration, not too much encumbrance, but low protection. Useful for thugs or for combat mages. |
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| | * ??Kithaironic Lion Pelt??: Budget head and body prot in one item for a cheap price and not much encumbrance. |
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| ===== Killing Enemy Thugs/SC's/Elites ===== | ===== Killing Enemy Thugs/SC's/Elites ===== |
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| If you need to chop up enemy big stuff, you're looking for accurate high-damage attacks. Some items that do that well are ??Greatsword of Sharpness??, ??Moon Blade??, ??Axe of Hate??, or ??Flesh Eater??. | If you need to chop up enemy big stuff, you're looking for accurate high-damage attacks. Some items that do that well are ??Greatsword of Sharpness??, ??Moon Blade??, ??Axe of Hate??, or ??Flesh Eater??. Items like ??Ring of the Warrior?? and ??Burning Pearl?? can help you hit. |
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| ====Important Spells==== | ====Important Spells==== |
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| Thugging and Super Combating is not as much about killing the enemy as it is about keeping yourself alive. To this end there are many spells which can be used to make thugs and SCs multiplicatively more durable. This is an incomplete list and you can help by expanding it. | Often your challenge is not as much about killing the enemy as it is about keeping yourself alive. To this end there are many spells which can be used to make thugs and SCs multiplicatively more durable. This is an incomplete list and you can help by expanding it. |
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| ===Self Buffs=== | ===Self Buffs=== |
| ??Liquid body?? and ??Temper flesh??: Both provide all [[physical resistance]]s, halving physical damage rounding down after protection goes a long way towards keeping someone alive. Temper flesh comes with some [[fire resistance]] and liquid body comes with affliction resistance and some other effects but for the most use cases these spells are equivalent. | ??Liquid body?? and ??Temper flesh??: Both provide all [[physical resistance]]s, halving physical damage rounding down after protection goes a long way towards keeping someone alive. Temper flesh comes with some [[fire resistance]] and liquid body comes with affliction resistance and some other effects but for the most use cases these spells are equivalent. |
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| ??Hell Power??: Hellpower provides a host of stat boosts to a caster, +att, def, mr, etc. which are all extremely valuable to a thug or SC but comes at a steep cost in fatigue and risk of being attacked by a [[horror]]. It is recommended that it not be cased by any single mage under B5 because of the long time they will spend asleep following the casting. The number of horrors which will be attracted by this spell make it only survivable by already powerful units such as Melqarts, Skratti, and Pretenders. | ??Ironskin??, ??Stoneskin??, and ??Barkskin?? give protection in return for a negative resistance. Often you can ensure that the negative resistance doesn't have too many negative implications -- but don't ??Stoneskin?? if you are expecting to fight ??Frozen Heart?? casters, for instance. |
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| | ??Soul Vortex?? is an excellent spell for fighting armies, allowing a powerful death mage to both kill and be healed by mundane troops they fight. |
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| | ??Invulnerability??, likewise, allows a powerful death mage to ignore attacks from mundane sources. |
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| | ??Summon Earthpower?? enables you to fight without fatiguing out. |
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| ??Flying Shield??: Grants [[protective force]], giving a 50% chance to add 20 [[protection]] on any attack. This stacks plainly with regular prot making it able to almost completely negate a lot of attacks on already high prot thugs. | ??Flying Shield??: Grants [[protective force]], giving a 50% chance to add 20 [[protection]] on any attack. This stacks plainly with regular prot making it able to almost completely negate a lot of attacks on already high prot thugs. |
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| | ??Mistform??: Grants quite a lot of extra endurance against mundane attacks. |
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| | ??Phoenix Pyre??: The reincarnation effect can be very powerful on SC's with substantial reinvigoration. |
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| ===Fluffer Spells=== | ===Fluffer Spells=== |
| ??Body Ethereal??: makes the subject [[ethereal]], which provides a 75% chance for non-magical attacks to whiff. This is a good spell to fluff because it only requires {{path>S1}} but a bad spell to have an SC cast because they can be cost effectively countered by ??Magic Duel??. | ??Body Ethereal??: makes the subject [[ethereal]], which provides a 75% chance for non-magical attacks to whiff. This is a good spell to fluff because it only requires {{path>S1}} but a bad spell to have an SC cast because they can be cost effectively countered by ??Magic Duel??. |
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| ??Mossbody??: Has a 75% chance to negate up to 15 points of damage, applied after protection, physical and elemental resistances. It has a funny effect where if an attack makes it through the extra 15 prot and does damage the mossbody disappears in a puff of poison but this is mostly an academic point when used on already high prot thugs. | ??Mossbody??: Has a 75% chance to negate up to 15 points of damage, applied after protection, physical and elemental resistances. It has a funny effect where if an attack makes it through the extra 15 prot and does damage the mossbody disappears in a puff of poison but this is mostly an academic point when used on already high prot thugs. Mossbody is particularly effective when combined with slash/blunt/pierce resistance from ??Temper Flesh?? or ??Liquid Body??; this combination is called "physmoss". |
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| ??Legions of Steel??: +3 prot to all armor is good for anyone wearing armor and invaluable for prot stacking tactics. | ??Legions of Steel??: +3 prot to all armor is good for anyone wearing armor and invaluable for prot stacking tactics. |
| === Anti-Thug Elites === | === Anti-Thug Elites === |
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| Some thug defenses are readily bypassed by elite non-commander units with high MR, magic weapons, and good stats. For instance, a few ??Living Mercury?? will splatter most thugs. Wights and some blessed sacreds can do this as well. Leading small groups of these around, possibly with a mage to buff them, can do a good job of repelling raiding thugs. | Some thug defenses are readily bypassed by elite non-commander units with high MR, magic weapons, and good stats. For instance, a few ??Living Mercury#2515?? will splatter most thugs. Wights and some blessed sacreds can do this as well. Leading small groups of these around, possibly with a mage to buff them, can do a good job of repelling raiding thugs. |
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| === Catching Thugs === | === Catching Thugs === |
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| If you are anticipating thugs that may use magic phase movement to jump on you, one anti-thug squad can cover two provinces, since you'll fight them whether they jump in the province you are starting in or the one you are moving to. | If you are anticipating thugs that may use magic phase movement to jump on you, one anti-thug squad can cover two provinces, since you'll fight them whether they jump in the province you are starting in or the one you are moving to. |
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| | =====See More===== |
| | [[baalz-zen | Zen and the Art of Thugging]] by Baalz |
