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--- toldi-diplomacy [2020/11/30 12:20]
naaira
+++ toldi-diplomacy [2020/11/30 23:07] (current)
naaira [Coalitions]
@@ Line 188: / Line 188: @@
 ====== Miscellaneous ======
-Defensive Pacts and Alliances
+===== Coalitions =====
-	- To those who haven’t played Dominions 5, might be surprised to find out that defensive pacts are almost non-existent in the community. In a Dominions 5 MP game you exist
+{{:guides:diplomacy:honk2.png?64&nolink |}}Coalitions are when two or more players get together to take down another nation, usually a nation that has grown so large or so powerful, that they are bound to win if they are not stopped immediately. Some nations do not need to grow to a large size before their neighbors believe them to be an existential threat (Sceleria, Nazca, MA Ermor etc.) and will coalition these nations in the early/mid-game.
-	in a state of nature (as Hobbes would describe it), where anyone can attack you. NAPs are tolerated as they allow one to focus on other fronts. A defensive pact is somewhat less
-	rare then an alliance.
-	- Defensive pact: Generally two nations agree to come to each others aid if one of them is attacked. Since diplomacy is not binding, one should only sign such pacts with players
-	they trust or have known for a while (and can thus determine how the player will honor their word regarding the pact or not). Defensive pacts can be limited: “I’ll help you if and
-	only if Player B attacks you”, or general “I’ll help you regardless who attacks you.” Defensive pacts usually should be kept as a secret, if publicized, they should be publicized in
-	such a way as to act as a deterrent to aggression, rather than it acting as a magnet that draws negative attention on to the two players who signed the pact. Sometimes it is sufficient
-	to let a player C know that you will come to the aid of player B if they get attacked by player C.
-		-Do’s: set clear expectations, boundaries, limits, timeframes. Be sure that both parties are exactly clear on what they want and are getting out of this defensive pact. Be sure
-		to discuss what would violate the defensive pact (throne rush/remote attacks etc.)
-		-Dont’s: publicize it willy nilly, try to extort your defensive pact partner, break a defensive pact without proper warning
-	- Alliance: if defensive pacts are like white ravens, alliances are like people who win the lottery… twice. The level of cooperation within what is referred to as an alliance can vary
-	greatly, but should include: information sharing (scouting etc.), trading with minimal tariffs, mutual defense, and, possibly, coordinated attacks/territory dividing. In my 20+ MP games
-	I have signed one alliance. Both of us were middle sized powers and afraid of a much larger, stronger power nearby. Our alliance lasted most of the game, but got strained after my
-	ally got attacked by player A, I joined the war against player A, but then player B also attacked my ally, and, since I didn’t share a border with player B, I was unable to help on that
-	front. This led to my ally quickly loosing ground, forcing him to sign peace with player A (the stronger player), while he fought off player B (the weaker player). This also left me in
-	an unfavorable war against player A.
-		-Do’s: everything that pertains to defensive pacts + a lot more communication. Works best with people you know in real life, or have known for a long time. Always maintain
-		a healthy dose of skepticism, to avoid being sucker punched if your ally decides to turn on you.
-		-Dont’s: same as defensive pacts + a much larger commitment to the other player. An alliance has little purpose if you (or the other player) are not willing to live up to the
-		obligations of the alliance that you signed.
+From the perspective of diplomacy, coalitions are a power multiplier. They allow you to enlist the aid (resources+troops+time) of another player to help you fight an enemy. When reaching out to a player about joining a coalition against another player, always clarify why you think the coalition is necessary (to convince the player) and what measures are you willing to take to fight the nation that needs to be brought down. This allows you to segueway into what you think the other nation can do as part of the coalition to take out the strong nation.
-Etiquette to ‘vulturing’:
+Keep in mind that gathering players into a coalition, and keeping them inside a coalition is almost like herding cats (situation and position of each player changes over time, and they might not be able to contribute to the fight against the strong player if their own borders are threatened by others). If you want a coalition, plan for it dissolving or at least weakening in 10-15 turns. Count yourself lucky if all original coalition members are still actively participating in the coalition after 20 turns (although at that point the question is how come you still haven’t taken out the strong player with all this support).
-	- ‘Vulturing’ is the act of taking lands from player B, after player A has crushed most of the armies of player B. This leads to great antipathy from player A, who expects to receive all
-	the spoils from fighting player B. Your act of swooping in like a vulture and picking off pieces from player B is thus viewed in a negative light. If one wants to vulture, it is better if they
-	at least participate in the war against player B (to have some legitimacy to the claim of some of the lands of player B). Barring that, you should reach out to player A and politely negotiate
-	for some of the spoils from player B citing: your rested and well equipped armies, your future goodwill towards player A, the importance of ‘nice’ borders (whatever that means), and
-	importance of maintaining the ‘balance’ after player A has taken all/most of player B’s lands.
-	- If one cannot be bothered to reach out to the other player, then do not expect positive results. On the flip side, one can also reach out to player B, and ask them if they are fine with
-	you taking some of their lands, so that it does not fall into the hands of player A. Most players will agree to this, and will wave any NAPs you might have with them in this scenario.
-	- Some players, notably Perun, would argue that one should not vulture on side that is losing, but on the side that is winning, so that you can gain a weak, but loyal ally (player B, whom you
-	‘saved’ from annihilation) and take out a potential enemy (player A if he gotten the lands of player B).
-	- Use your own discretion when making these calls.
-Remote assassination spells and spells reported as random events:
+==== Breaking up coalitions against you ====
-	- There are remote assassination spells that do not show/tell who was the caster. Seeking arrow is one of them. Only use these tools if you can achieve plausible deniability (other nations/
+Just as coalitions can be powerful when aimed at your enemies, they are equally dangerous when aimed at you. If you become the target of a coalition, then you have multiple options:
-	players within spell range who could and would cast that spell). If one uses this carefully, and feeds misinformation to both sides, they could spark a war between two other players. Great
+  - Fight them all off if you are strong enough.
-	finesse is required for this, and therefore it is not advised.
+  - Sign a separate peace with a few of your attackers to focus on a smaller part of the coalition. You might need to give up territory/gems/gold/items for this.
-	- There are also spells that are reported as random events: black death, hurricane etc. These generally cause unrest and/or kill population. Use them judiciously and if you have plausible
+  - ‘Turtle’ as in hide in your forts and avoid major engagements for 10-15 turns, as usually in that amount of time some nations will leave the coalition due to a change in their own position.
-	deniability. If you are at war, then use it as much as you like, but beware, that you will receive a similar treatment from the enemy (as this will be viewed as an escalation of your conflict).
+  - Avoid getting coalition-ed in the first place - do whatever is necessary to achieve that
-Scouting:
+===== Defensive Pacts and Alliances =====
-	- Don’t trust some of the older players who scoff at scouts. Get scouts. If you don’t have them natively, summon them (black servants etc.). Gaining knowledge of where the enemies armies are
+Those who have not played Dominions 5 might be surprised to find out that defensive pacts are almost non-existent in the community. In a Dominions 5 MP game you exist in a state of nature (as [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes#Political_theory|Hobbes]] would describe it), where anyone can attack you. NAPs are tolerated as they allow one to focus on other fronts. A defensive pact is somewhat less rare then an alliance.
-	can be vital for your survival, or as a trade item with another player. For beginners, seed all the provinces of your neighbors with scouts. Once you become more comfortable with using scouts,
-	you will be able to diminish the amount that you need.
+<WRAP box round>
-	- Things to pay attention to while scouting: enemy bless, unguarded/site searching mages/pretenders, blood hunting operations (usually given away by a large amount of chaff sitting in a random
+<WRAP column half>==== Defensive pact ====
-	province), thug and troop movements, lone commanders (probably building forts). All of this information can be vital.
+Generally two nations agree to come to each others aid if one of them is attacked. Since diplomacy is not binding, one should only sign such pacts with players they trust or have known for a while (and can thus determine how the player will honor their word regarding the pact or not). Defensive pacts can be limited //“I’ll help you if and only if Player B attacks you”//, or general //“I’ll help you regardless who attacks you.”//
+Defensive pacts usually should be kept as a secret, if publicized, they should be publicized in such a way as to act as a deterrent to aggression, rather than it acting as a magnet that draws negative attention on to the two players who signed the pact. Sometimes it is sufficient to let a player C know that you will come to the aid of player B if they get attacked by player C. </WRAP>
+<WRAP column half>
+<WRAP column half>
+==== Do’s ====
+  * Set clear expectations, boundaries, limits, timeframes.
+  * Be sure that both parties are exactly clear on what they want and are getting out of this defensive pact.
+  * Be sure to discuss what would violate the defensive pact (throne rush/remote attacks etc.).
+</WRAP>
+<WRAP column half>
+==== Dont’s ====
+  * Publicize it willy nilly.
+  * Try to extort your defensive pact partner.
+  * Break a defensive pact without proper warning.
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:goose_stonks.png?64 |}}
+</WRAP></WRAP></WRAP>
+<WRAP box round>
+<WRAP column half>==== Alliance ====
+If defensive pacts are like white ravens, alliances are like people who win the lottery… twice. The level of cooperation within what is referred to as an alliance can vary greatly, but should include: information sharing (scouting etc.), trading with minimal tariffs, mutual defense, and, possibly, coordinated attacks/territory dividing. In my 20+ MP games I have signed one alliance. Both of us were middle sized powers and afraid of a much larger, stronger power nearby. Our alliance lasted most of the game, but got strained after my ally got attacked by player A, I joined the war against player A, but then player B also attacked my ally, and, since I didn’t share a border with player B, I was unable to help on that front. This led to my ally quickly loosing ground, forcing him to sign peace with player A (the stronger player), while he fought off player B (the weaker player). This also left me inan unfavorable war against player A. </WRAP>
+<WRAP column half>
+<WRAP column half>
+==== Do’s ===
+  * Everything that pertains to defensive pacts + a lot more communication.
+  * Works best with people you know in real life, or have known for a long time.
+  * Always maintain a healthy dose of skepticism, to avoid being sucker punched if your ally decides to turn on you.
+</WRAP>
+<WRAP column half>
+==== Dont’s ====
+  * Same as defensive pacts + a much larger commitment to the other player. An alliance has little purpose if you (or the other player) are not willing to live up to the obligations of the alliance that you signed.
+</WRAP></WRAP>
+</WRAP>
+===== Etiquette to ‘vulturing’ =====
+**‘Vulturing’** is the act of taking lands from player B, after player A has crushed most of the armies of player B. This leads to great antipathy from player A, who expects to receive all the spoils from fighting player B. Your act of swooping in like a vulture and picking off pieces from player B is thus viewed in a negative light. If one wants to vulture, it is better if they at least participate in the war against player B (to have some legitimacy to the claim of some of the lands of player B). Barring that, you should reach out to player A and politely negotiate for some of the spoils from player B citing: your rested and well equipped armies, your future goodwill towards player A, the importance of ‘nice’ borders (whatever that means), and importance of maintaining the ‘balance’ after player A has taken all/most of player B’s lands.
+If one cannot be bothered to reach out to the other player, then do not expect positive results. On the flip side, one can also reach out to player B, and ask them if they are fine with you taking some of their lands, so that it does not fall into the hands of player A. Most players will agree to this, and will wave any NAPs you might have with them in this scenario.
+Some players, notably Perun, would argue that one should not vulture on side that is losing, but on the side that is winning, so that you can gain a weak, but loyal ally (player B, whom you ‘saved’ from annihilation) and take out a potential enemy (player A if he gotten the lands of player B).
+Use your own discretion when making these calls.
+\\ \\
+<WRAP group>
+<WRAP column half>
+===== Remote assassination spells =====
+There are **remote assassination spells** that do not show/tell who was the caster. ??Seeking Arrow?? is one of them. Only use these tools if you can achieve plausible deniability (other nations/players within spell range who could and would cast that spell). If one uses this carefully, and feeds misinformation to both sides, they could spark a war between two other players. Great finesse is required for this, and therefore it is not advised.
+</WRAP><WRAP column half>
+===== Spells reported as random events =====
+There are also spells that are reported as random events: ??Black Death??, ??Hurricane?? etc. These generally cause unrest and/or kill population. Use them judiciously and if you have plausible deniability. If you are at war, then use it as much as you like, but beware, that you will receive a similar treatment from the enemy (as this will be viewed as an escalation of your conflict).
+</WRAP></WRAP>
+===== Scouting =====
+Don’t trust some of the older players who scoff at scouts. Get scouts. If you don’t have them natively, summon them (black servants etc.). Gaining knowledge of where the enemies armies are can be vital for your survival, or as a trade item with another player. For beginners, seed all the provinces of your neighbors with scouts. Once you become more comfortable with using scouts, you will be able to diminish the amount that you need.
+<WRAP box round >
+<WRAP column quarter>
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:happygoose.png?64 |}}
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:happygoose2.png?64 |}}
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:happygoose.png?64 |}}
+</WRAP>
+<WRAP column quarter right>
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:happygoose2.png?64 |}}
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:happygoose.png?64 |}}
+{{ :guides:diplomacy:happygoose2.png?64 |}}
+</WRAP>
+<WRAP centeralign>**Things to pay attention to while scouting**</WRAP>
+  * Enemy bless and army composition.
+  * Unguarded/site searching mages/pretenders
+  * Blood hunting operations (usually given away by a large amount of chaff sitting in a random province)
+  * Thug and troop movements,
+  * Lone commanders (probably building forts).
+<WRAP centeralign>//All of this information can be vital.//</WRAP>
+</WRAP>
 ====== Disciples Diplomacy: (2+ Player Disciple Teams) ======
@@ Line 273: / Line 316: @@
-<WRAP box round>{{:guides:diplomacy:honk2.png?64&nolink |}}**Further information**
+<WRAP box round> ===== Two useful YouTube videos on Diplomacy =====
+<WRAP column half>{{:wiki:lucid.jpg?64 |}}
-Lucid’s Multiplayer Guide - Diplomacy (on youtube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cUQ0_giqL4
+Lucid’s Multiplayer Guide - Diplomacy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cUQ0_giqL4
 </WRAP>
+<WRAP column half>{{:wiki:perun.jpg?64 |}}
+Perun’s Dominions 5 Strategy: Diplomacy Concepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkH41pY3xkY
+</WRAP></WRAP>
 {{tag>Guides}}

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