dom6:guides_and_player_improvement:strategy_articles:thugs
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dom6:guides_and_player_improvement:strategy_articles:thugs [2026/07/21 12:22] cybertron2 [Heavy Thug] |
dom6:guides_and_player_improvement:strategy_articles:thugs [2026/07/25 14:05] (current) cybertron2 [Magic Phase + Stealthy Units / Mages] |
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| - | Conceptually there' | + | Conceptually there' |
| - | **Light thug:** This is the most common type of thug - and what most players are referring to. These are units or summons with 0-15 gems worth of gear that can take on PD or small armies either alone, or with a few fluffers. I will present a few examples of different types of light thugs. | + | //There are some specialized use cases as well (Counterthugs, |
| + | |||
| + | **Light thug:** This is the most common type of thug - and what most players are referring to. These are units or summons with 0-15 gems worth of gear that can take on PD or small armies either alone, or with a few fluffers. | ||
| * A Geronte from Mekone with blacksteel plate (casting fire shield turn 1). | * A Geronte from Mekone with blacksteel plate (casting fire shield turn 1). | ||
| * A polemarch from Mekone casting spells on itself (no gear or fluffer required) | * A polemarch from Mekone casting spells on itself (no gear or fluffer required) | ||
| Line 54: | Line 56: | ||
| //Many players have split opinions on the value of these thugs (both specifically and in principle) - since losing them is incredibly expensive and they' | //Many players have split opinions on the value of these thugs (both specifically and in principle) - since losing them is incredibly expensive and they' | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Two huge boons on this type of unit are magic phase movement (so they can pick their battles), and having access to stealth gear (glamor) on a scout so they can sidle away, safe from the risk of counter-thugs. They both substantially reduce the risk of losing the thug. // | ||
| * A Twiceborned Sauromancer from Ctis with high prot armor/ | * A Twiceborned Sauromancer from Ctis with high prot armor/ | ||
| Line 105: | Line 109: | ||
| ===A simple example=== | ===A simple example=== | ||
| - | Say you have 29 Prot and roll a 3 when fatigued out (1/12 fights you roll a 2 or 3). You end at 25 prot (29-7+4). Meanwhile an opposing heavy infantry with a mere 16 damage highrolls a 12 (not that big a highroll with exploding DRN - it's exactly 1/6 for 12 or higher). | + | Say you have 29 Prot and roll a 3 when fatigued out (1/12 fights you roll a 2 or 3). You end at 25 prot (29-7+3). Meanwhile an opposing heavy infantry with a mere 16 damage highrolls a 12 (not that big a highroll with exploding DRN - it's exactly 1/6 for 12 or higher). |
| * It's going to deal 3+1 damage (plus 25% on 3 due to slashing modifier for 4 total) - despite you having 13 more prot than its damage. And you may be tanking dozens of hits each turn, so this ' | * It's going to deal 3+1 damage (plus 25% on 3 due to slashing modifier for 4 total) - despite you having 13 more prot than its damage. And you may be tanking dozens of hits each turn, so this ' | ||
| Line 212: | Line 216: | ||
| * Earth power is a close second, being reinvigoration in spell form (allowing many units to be fatigue neutral at const 3) | * Earth power is a close second, being reinvigoration in spell form (allowing many units to be fatigue neutral at const 3) | ||
| * The skin spells (barkskin/ | * The skin spells (barkskin/ | ||
| - | * Reinvigoration items come into their own at const 5 (boots of the messenger / amulet of reinvigoration (N), and Girdle of Might (E)). Similarly – amulet of regeneration is ‘the’ regeneration item at const5. The defensive misc items also get a notch better | + | * Reinvigoration items come into their own at const 5 (boots of the messenger / amulet of reinvigoration (N), and Girdle of Might (E)). Similarly – amulet of regeneration is ‘the’ regeneration item at const5. The defensive misc items also get a notch better |
| * At const 3 thugs can be a bit finnicky and struggle to stay fatigue positive, whilst at const5, the options tend to greatly increase. There is more variety at con7 - but const3 and const 5 are sort of the ' | * At const 3 thugs can be a bit finnicky and struggle to stay fatigue positive, whilst at const5, the options tend to greatly increase. There is more variety at con7 - but const3 and const 5 are sort of the ' | ||
| Line 240: | Line 244: | ||
| --- | --- | ||
| TODO | TODO | ||
| - | * Army Thugs | + | |
| - | * Counterthugs | + | |
| - | < | + | |
| - | * Second round of feedback | + | |
| - | * Thug/ | + | |
| - | < | + | |
| * Specific point buffing section (best point buffs research 1-4 -> Self and Fluffers -> Sort by magictype bold the priorities, bold underline the defining spells) | * Specific point buffing section (best point buffs research 1-4 -> Self and Fluffers -> Sort by magictype bold the priorities, bold underline the defining spells) | ||
| - | * Memoria Notes | ||
| - | * Hannibal Notes | ||
| * HOW NOT TO MAKE A THUG (lets use my own horrid examples) | * HOW NOT TO MAKE A THUG (lets use my own horrid examples) | ||
| - | * Simplify and rewrite when its all up | + | * Thugs/SC's plus army wipes (e.g. foul vapors) |
| - | * Hammers, 5 Gem items, Steel Oven and Cheap Thugs | + | |
| + | * Clean up table for Bracers of Protection (Add in the combo with temper armors) | ||
| + | * And maybe touch briefly on sacred thugs if applicable | ||
| + | * Tidy Point Buffing Table | ||
| + | * Flesh out Heavy Thug Examples - 20+PD etc. Also flesh out MP counterthugs (start with golems) | ||
| - | You also need a section on identifying good thug chassis. Something like path combinations, | + | **LATE IN THE PIECE** |
| + | * Add a newbie section of SC's and answers | ||
| + | * Second round of feedback | ||
| + | * Simplify and rewrite when its all up | ||
| + | * * a section that shows some thugs / SCs that explains how you should identify what their strengths and weaknesses are and how to deal with them. | ||
| + | * | ||
| + | * Sort thugs also by Research Point (not just type), both const and other | ||
| -- | -- | ||
| - | And maybe touch briefly on sacred thugs if applicable | ||
| - | Magic phasing thugs are another thing. As well as bringing in scouts with stealth gear for a safe retreat | ||
| - | Or magic phase plus stealthy mages combining for extra punch | ||
| - | A section on point buffing is needed | ||
| - | And a section on SC army wipers | ||
| - | -- | ||
| - | -- | ||
| - | How to make a thug | ||
| - | I think a more useful example for this guide would be outlining how to create a thug to defeat roughly 20pd to raid an enemy province with what it has to defeat and what it would need to do the job. Then a second section detailing how to defeat that specific thug with perhaps a third section on how to ambush that counterthug with another thug type at roughly similar research levels. | ||
| - | Simple example would be a D2 mage with gems/armor and a few gems to raid a border province, with the counter potentially being a golem with chains and a firebrand/ | ||
| - | |||
| - | -- | ||
| - | |||
| ====Counterthugs==== | ====Counterthugs==== | ||
| Line 278: | Line 271: | ||
| * A counterthug might be a single Cynocephalian Chieftan with a Greatsword of Sharpness. That is going to deal 33ARP slashing damage per round - averaging 21/hit. This kills the very elite thug in two swings (or two thugs in one turn). | * A counterthug might be a single Cynocephalian Chieftan with a Greatsword of Sharpness. That is going to deal 33ARP slashing damage per round - averaging 21/hit. This kills the very elite thug in two swings (or two thugs in one turn). | ||
| - | Counterthugs tend to be defined by their weapons. Ordinarily they need some trait that allows them to kill a thug easily. | + | Counterthugs tend to be defined by their weapons. Ordinarily they need some trait that allows them to kill a thug easily. Since they aren't designed for sustained combat - they generally don't need to worry about things like staying fatigue neutral or HP regen. |
| + | When using counterthugs - you often want a scout or similar unit present to help loot any spoils. If the enemy has a GSS of their own for example and you bring 2 GSS counterthugs, | ||
| + | ====Army Thugs==== | ||
| + | An army thug is essentially a thug that rather than doing things solo - sits in an army. Broadly - the goal of these tends to be one of three - | ||
| + | * Make a unit semi-indestructible to hold off a large blob of troops | ||
| + | * Have a unit designed to snipe elites | ||
| + | * Have a super-DPS unit embedded in an army line | ||
| - | ====Common Thug Buffs -> Up to Research 4===== | + | At late research, soul vortex and invulnerability almost automatically make any death mage an army thug. Earlier, players need to be a bit more creative. |
| - | Multiplicative Buffs (The Best Ones) | + | |
| - | Body Ethere | + | |
| - | SelfBuffs | + | Units designed to hold off large blobs of troops tend to be built similarly to ordinary thugs - albeit with a focus on survivability. They tend to accept every buff the player army can give them, then misbehave with the enemy troop line (sometimes with magic like shockwave, sometimes by just sitting in a blob and occupying it). |
| - | Fluffable Buffs | + | Units designed to snipe elites tend to be build closer to counterthugs, |
| - | SelfBuffable | + | Super-DPS inline units are just what they sound like. In a line of low to mid DPS units, having a few GSS thugs can suddenly make that line extremely dangerous |
| + | MEMORIA NOTES (to clean up) | ||
| + | * Generally want to be more minimalist | ||
| + | * Wading is a massive deal | ||
| + | * More offensive in nature | ||
| + | * Use the troops around them as defense (hard to surround) | ||
| + | ====Common Thug Buffs -> Up to Research 4===== | ||
| + | ## REDO this - need to get underlining right etc in images | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | ====Common Thug Gear -> Up to Research 5==== | ||
| + | // | ||
| + | |||
| + | {{: | ||
| + | {{: | ||
| + | {{: | ||
| + | {{: | ||
| + | {{: | ||
| ====Hammer Economy - why hammers are more than just +2 gems==== | ====Hammer Economy - why hammers are more than just +2 gems==== | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====Light Thugs / Raiders===== | ||
| + | * Generally more minimalist | ||
| + | * More defensive in nature (relative to army thugs) | ||
| + | * Armour defeating hits become a big deal | ||
| + | * Etc | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====Other Structural Notes - Memoria===== | ||
| + | * Gear, | ||
| + | * Mechanics, | ||
| + | * Scripts, | ||
| + | * Supporting ' | ||
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| ====Heavy Thug==== | ====Heavy Thug==== | ||
| **Machaka Phoenix Pyre Soul Vortex Anti-Infantry Heavy Thug [25-30 Gems] (Twicebornable)** | **Machaka Phoenix Pyre Soul Vortex Anti-Infantry Heavy Thug [25-30 Gems] (Twicebornable)** | ||
| + | |||
| //This is a straightforward Fire/Death Pyre/ | //This is a straightforward Fire/Death Pyre/ | ||
| + | |||
| + | Assuming wiki is in-date [[https:// | ||
| + | |||
| + | //If you're incredibly greedy - you can cast twiceborn on these then cast transformation (or do it the other way around albeit twiceborn will cost more gems) and hope for a giant chassis. This essentially will turn it into a proper supercombatant (in both forms). When supercombatanting - you would gear more extensively.// | ||
| * ??Black Sorcerer?? | * ??Black Sorcerer?? | ||
| Line 363: | Line 396: | ||
| * ?? | * ?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====Light Thug==== | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Vampire Lord Light Thug - 96 Blood Slaves (0-10 gems)** | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This flies, is immortal (so is low committment) and can raid moderate amounts of PD solo even ungeared. Works well ungeared and with a single piece of armor. Also it can swap to horde of skeleton spam or melee variants on a dime which can cause counterthugs fits. Being immortal and flying means this unit can take otherwise risky lines. Boots and armor can be brought in to raid deeper and increase survivability for relatively few gems. A very powerful unit - but it's deep in research at blood 8. In dominions 5 it was exceptional at blood 7, now it competes with Three Red Seconds, so it's still good but lost some utility (the alternatives are stronger)// | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Also notable - this can be magic phased with ??Hell Ride??// | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ??Vampire Lord?? | ||
| + | * [No Gear or 5 Gem Armor] | ||
| + | * ??Soul Vortex??, [Spells (Can end on Reinvigoration with 1 Slave)] | ||
| + | |||
| + | -- TODO | ||
| + | Vanjarl: Snake bladder stick, poison ring. Blessing, personal Mistform, (pick one of air shield, personal luck, blur, gem into displacement or shroud of bewilderment), | ||
| + | |||
| + | Hangadrott, wraith sword, Elemental Armor, black steel helm, girdle of might, amulet of magic resistance. Blessing, Invulnerability, | ||
| + | |||
| + | Anansi: Frost Brand, Kithaironic Pelt (for F/G/N random) or armor of the knight (for E/D random), Boots of the Messenger. Shroud of Bewilderment, | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | ====Army Thug==== | ||
| + | **MA Jotunheim - Cheap Giant Army Thug / Counter-Thug - 10-15B ** | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This works because its incredibly cheap. It only uses blood slaves, hits hard, and is on a non-mage sacred commander so can accept a bless. Weapons can be interchanged, | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ??Jotun Herse?? | ||
| + | * ??Flesh Eater?? (X1 or X2),??Ring Of The Warrior?? | ||
| + | * Attack Closest | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | ====Counter-Thug==== | ||
| + | |||
| + | **5 Gem Hammer of the Mountains Cyno/ | ||
| + | //This is an incredibly barebones counterthug. It is designed to deal with small units with the AOE stun - essentially stunlocking them until they die. It is effective against low str targets and defense stackers.// | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * ??Hammer of the Mountains?? | ||
| + | * Attack Closest | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====The Infamous Demilich Pretender (Going to treat it as a Supercombatant) ===== | ||
| + | **Demilich V1 - Battlefield Spells - 0-10 gems of gear, 3 gems to teleport, 1-2 D gems** | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This works because the demilich is immortal, and can use innate caster to bonk an entire army at the start of combat with some crippling battlefield wide spell. The basic idea is it teleports in, kills everything or mames everything (e.g. with disease), and either wins (fine), or dies and respawns, ready to do it all next turn, and the next turn etc. It wears Magic Penetration gear to increase the kill potential// | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Because the Demilich can do this time and time again, it rapidly can wear down any force not inside a fort, killing large volumes of mages and troops. It can singlehandedly make it difficult to move stacks around in the mid-lategame. Since few answers deal with it permanently (and if an opponent has answers, the user presumably takes precautions), | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Such a build benefits from Blood4 due to the bonus 10HP, needs S3 (teleport), and at least D6 (Bone grinding). The rest of the pathing on the pretender can vary significantly based on player preference - albeit A1 is popular for Wind of Death// | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * ??Eye of the Void??, ??Spell Focus?? | ||
| + | * ??Bone Grinding?? OR ??Wind of Death?? -> Other Spells or recasts [also a 5x Magic Duel variant] | ||
| + | |||
| + | **V2 - Phoenix Pyre Variant - 4 Gems (No Items)** | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This is essentially the anti-PD variant. It's an ungeared or reinvig geared variant that just keeps respawning and killing things with magic. Technically you can put the two builds together, but they have quite different functions and will often want different spells (It's not bad on wind of death to keep the spell up for longer).// | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * No Items | ||
| + | * ??Phoenix Pyre??, ??Soul Vortex??, Other Spells (?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====The Horror Harmonica Golem Supercombatant===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Horror Harmonica Golem - 130 Gems Core, usually with another 30-40 gems in Armor, Misc Slot, Boots, Weapon/ | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This is one of the most feared supercombatants in dominions since any nation can make it. It is one of the big payoffs for being the first person to construction 9. Essentially, | ||
| + | |||
| + | // | ||
| + | |||
| + | //(IDK the exact mechanics on ring of returning but there' | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ??Golem?? | ||
| + | * ??The Horror Harmonica??, | ||
| + | * Summon Horror X5. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ===Why this unit is so annoying=== | ||
| + | There are a small variety of answers to this unit - mostly focused around a unit with const gear hitting really hard and killing the golem in 1 round before ring of returning pops. For example - Dalts Reccomends a Golem of ones own with ??Gloves of the Gladiator?? to deal massive damage in one turn and kill the golem. A players gets the attack ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | The big problem is - if there' | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Dealing with Returning Thugs/ | ||
| + | ===Thug Answers=== | ||
| + | |||
| + | Returning triggers at the ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | There are a few weapons that take advantage of this. ??Sword of Swiftness?? hits twice, ??Gloves of the Gladiator?? hits 4 times!! and ??Wave Breaker?? hits 3 times. All 3 are good options for dealing with a returning thug using items - especially if on a good chassis and carefully buffed. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ===Magic Answers=== | ||
| + | Any magic to deal with a returning thug has to kill it in one hit. If your opponent has Astral Paths (they shouldn' | ||
| + | |||
| + | Otherwise, a few specfic spells can punch through a high HP returning chassis. // | ||
| + | * ??Gifts from Heaven?? | ||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * The blood banish spells ??Infernal Prison?? and ??Claws of Kokytos?? | ||
| + | * Against non-undead | ||
| + | * For magic units, ??Control?? / ?? | ||
| + | * ??Corpse Candle?? -> This is a little buggy due to the way illwinter coded it and does a Lot more damage than regular decay. | ||
| + | * Technically charm effects work but SC's tend to have high morale. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====MA Xibalba - I can't believe it's not a vampire lord (Invuln Vortex Thugs)==== | ||
| + | **Camazots (D2) Cheap Backline Raider/Army Thug 2-3 gems + 5-10 gems of gear** | ||
| + | |||
| + | //The basic idea of this thug is it's cheap (it carries 2 gems to cast invuln and vortex), flies (so it can attack rear), and has D2 for invuln/ | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====The Earlygame Bronze Colossus Pretender Supercombatant===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This is an inanimate pretender with innate caster, lots of prot, lots of resists, and air paths so it can teleport. Earlygame, a lot of nations simply can't answer this or require extremely dedicated answers. The bronze colossus - albeit boring - has a bad habit of winning games due to wiping out stacks with ease, and being a magic phase monster// | ||
| + | |||
| + | //In theory it's a little vulnerable to thugs - GSS lines, Smasher' | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Normally, this unit will cast shockwave on spam for damage - albeit iron fists also works on hard targets. Finding the goldilocks balance of gear can be tricky - but this unit generally likes a lot of buffs. Just because it's a one man army doesn' | ||
| + | |||
| + | //One core thing to remember - even though it has innate caster and is inanimate (low fatigue), if you give it too much encumbrance and a lengthy buff script - the fatigue can be non-trivial. Since any non armor-defeating hits are likely to do nothing - this is a real consideration.// | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====The Late Game Innate Caster Giant Rock Pretender Supercombatant===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | // | ||
| + | // | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Unempowered Lategame Idol of Sorcery** | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ??Idol of Sorcery?? | ||
| + | * ??Eye of the Void??, ??Amulet of Antimagic?? | ||
| + | * ??Soul Drain??, ??Soul Vortex??, ??Astral Shield??, ??Body Ethereal??, ??Shroud of Bewilderment?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====The Early to Early-MidGame Innate Caster Giant Rock Pretender Supercombatant===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | //At this phase of the game a big, inanimate, teleporting rock can be very hard to deal with. Layer on a few defensive buffs, and you have a super-combatant that can't move (ergo can't retreat) - so if it survives the combat - will rout the enemy. Of course, these big inanimate units tend to have a bunch of HP and can also just kill entire armies. However given the value of ones pretender - the safest use for these is picking off fringe parties, since dropping on someone' | ||
| + | |||
| + | //A popular meme strategy is getting some form of rock pretender awake and teleporting onto someones capital. It has its risks and problems, but if you can pull it off, it can obviously be crippling in a first war situation. Of course, this also leaves you on an awake researcher line with 'at best' an out of commission pretender for other players **(or a big honking trade partner for a third party with E forging)** - killing your pretender - leaving both players crippled and likely in a hellwar - in a position for said third player to swoop in). And if the monodrop fails for some reason, that's a very good way to knock one's self out of the game. As such - monodrop buids tend to be a bit of a meme// | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Typically this type of supercombatant has a few glaring weaknesses.// | ||
| + | * They tend to die quickly to construction 3 E items - so they often need to take care. In higher skill lobbies, these items will be traded around in the hopes of sniping such as super-combatant so a nation' | ||
| + | * They tend to be very reliant on either Prot (e.g. Monolith) or a high HP pool with some defenses (e.g. Baphomet). Accordingly - they are vulnerable to high damage/ | ||
| + | * They tend to take some chip damage in a fight - so can't 'go forever' | ||
| + | * They want to teleport onto labs if possible so they can teleport to safety after | ||
| + | * It can be awkward getting the research needed to use these in a timely manner. They typically need Thamuturgy4 for the teleport, but their actual combat spells come from other paths. As such, they can often come online later than one might expect (since a user needs multiple researches at 2-4) where they are more vulnerable | ||
| + | * Come the midgame - these aren't incredibly sturdy. It's the phase before battlefield wipes - so they don't kill quickly - but after research 3-4ish, so players have some good magic, Evocation is creeping up in damage and construction items are flying around. They' | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | * | ||
| + | =====MA Naba Malikah - Multifaceted Thug===== | ||
| + | //The Malikah is quite a complicated thugging unit. Naba gets access to a range of buffs - so it can have a lot of buffs painted on. It has good paths (is slowrec so is expensive), solid stats (especially in magic scales), decent HP and human encumbrance (3). It's complicated because there are so many good aspects - and yet the unit struggles to balance fatigue / thugging and it's easy to go overboard, fatigue out, and die.// | ||
| + | |||
| + | //The basic spells it wants to selfbuff (on Naba's paths) are | ||
| + | ??Shroud of Splendor??, ??Shroud of Bewilderment?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | //It wants a few spells fluffed. Ideally it wants a skin buff like ?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | //Put all this together and you have a lot of defensive layers at around research 3-4, albeit fatigue remains in issue. Fortunately - the self buffs aren't especially fatigue heavy, but a complicating factor is the best fatigue regen items come at con5 (albeit ??Rangers Boots?? exist at con3) Even with all the defensive layers the unit will be a little vulnerable as it wants to spam ?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | //You can build this a few different ways - as a cheapo thug, with a weapon element (like repel), as a mage, as a heavy thug with a shield. There' | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Example Malikah Heavy Thug - 15 gems (earth random) - 1 gem carried - Research 3. ** | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ??Malikah?? | ||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * ??Summon Earthpower??, | ||
| + | * Fluffed - ??Blur??, ??Bless??, ??Temper Armors?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Ulm Barebones Black Lord Army Thug (1 Gem with hammers!!)===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This is a barebones, no nonsense army thug (or counterthug). Other nations can do similar things, or use indie heavy cavalry, but it works best on ulm due to their multiple earth gem discounts to forging - so this can cost as little as 1 gem and provides quite a lot of killing power on an armored chassis. They get stronger when fluffed with low level earth spells (Temper Armor, Strength of Giants) and body ethereal (a classic). Obviously | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Ulm Black Lord 5 Gem (with ulm discounts) thwacker** | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ??Black Lord?? | ||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * HoldX3-5. Attack Closest | ||
| + | * Best with a random mage fluffing ??Temper Armors??, ??Strength of Giants??, ??Body Ethereal?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Expensive Golem Counterthug===== | ||
| + | **DEETS** | ||
| + | //The basic idea of this unit is it allows nations with limited magic phase access to use a golem as a magic phase counterthug. It's very expensive, but the idea broadly is if you can bonk a heavy thug - the gear recovered offsets some of the cost - and it's fairly low risk since it's magic phase and presumably in your own lands (enemy raiding), and the payoff can be quite lucrative. Players may need a scout or two in position to ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | //The specifics of the golem will depend a lot on the specifics of the enemy thug. As a rule of thumb - counterthugging heavy thugs is best with highly damaging weapons (ARP/AN 2 handed), and the golem will want a S booster (Meteoric Coin or Starshine Skullcap), but beyond that there' | ||
| + | =====Magic to Counter Thugs and Supercombatants===== | ||
| + | Firstly - not all magic will work all the time. Due to the wide variety of thugs that can be built - and the large number of spells - this list will invariably be missing effective spells and answers. Nevertheless, | ||
| + | |||
| + | * **Curse:** This is the premiere anti SC anti-thug spell. It comes in a G/N and D from at early research (the latter needing gems), and dramatically increases the chance a unit will take an affliction when it takes damage. And since quite a lot of supercombatants take chip damage and rely on regeneration, | ||
| + | * **Magic Duel:** Astral thugs and supercombatants are at extreme risk in enemy astral nations due to this spell. It singlehandedly ' | ||
| + | * **Web/Earth Meld:** The ' | ||
| + | * **Mind Hunt / Soul Slay**: Although at high research, this is incredibly powerful vs thugs. It allows a defender to remotely snipe attacking thugs - often at a fraction of the gem cost | ||
| + | * **Ravenous Swarm:** This only targets undead and is particularly effective vs human sized twiceborn thugs | ||
| + | * **Damaging Spells** There are an assortment of damage spells across the various research levels that deal with thugs. Given the different research points and the different uses of thugs - it would be trite to list them all. | ||
| + | * Two famously powerful ones are at B8 ??Life for a Life?? (which essentially one shots a human sized thug), and ??Frozen Heart?? (which rapidly kills anything without CR due to dealing AN damage and has low path requirements at W1. If we go lower in the research, ??Lightning Bolt?? can also be very effective. The trait these three spells share is AN damage, so they bypass any armor. | ||
| + | * A bit more esoterically - the AOE spells at Evocation 5 fare well against a lot of army thugs - so ??Falling Fires??, ??Gifts from Heaven?? etc (arp and high damage and high aoe). | ||
| + | * **Chaff Spam** (e.g. horde of skeletons, Warrior Illusion): Not all thugs have an AOE kill mechanism. Simply spamming chaffy units can overwhelm them. This is particularly effective for nations that can deploy a low volume of mages to deal with an otherwise irritating thug | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Tricks to Deal with Thugs===== | ||
| + | **Retreat Orders:** If you fear a thug or supercombatant drop, you can always script an army full of mages to retreat. It's not always an obvious option - but if you're moving in your own lands - this can minimize damage | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Thug Types and PD===== | ||
| + | Different thugs do well into different PD. More specifically - prot thugs get really unhappy when thrown at Lizardmen or Barbarians and die quickly. | ||
| + | |||
| + | As a rule of thumb - tribe and underground provinces are good targets for thugs since the PD is weak - and the defender because of that is unlikely to invest heavily. | ||
| + | |||
| + | Of course - tracking PD types is laborious. If you're going maximum effort however - you can track the PD type of border provinces before neighbors conquer them so you can later allocate thugs (or not allocate thugs) to take those squares. Meanwhile - if you're going to PD dump against thugs - it's best that be on a tile that has good independents (such as barbs/ | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Thug and Supercombatant Usage and Risk===== | ||
| + | When using a thug or supercombatant, | ||
| + | |||
| + | Light thugs will tend to always have some level of risk to a PD dump of any PD type. Some are more resistant to this than others. | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Edge of Territory Provinces: | ||
| + | |||
| + | The second advantage of these is unpredictability. If there' | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Tiles Adjacent to a Fort** These tiles are considerably riskier to attack, as the attacker can be confident that the defender has mages (and troops) inside the fort. Of course, taking these tiles is often important staging for a war, but they carry higher risks. The other, less obvious risk, is the deeper into enemy land one goes, the less paths of retreat remain. Often this means a thug's movements can be relatively predictable. | ||
| + | |||
| + | The other problem with raiding these is they' | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Forts and Capitals** Interestingly - players often forget to patrol these early (since the mages are on research), but once pinged they' | ||
| + | |||
| + | When attacking these - there will always be the risk of both a mage/ | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Catching Small, Targeted Forces** | ||
| + | Heavy Thugs and Supercombatants tend to shine in low-risk scenarios where they can wipe out a important (but ultimately small) force. The small force is unlikely to have answers to have answers to the thug, and the thug is able to accrue value at a respectable pace with relatively low risk. As a rule of thumb, this isn't going to be a main army, but splinter forces, reinforcement, | ||
| + | |||
| + | **Catching Large Forces** This is mostly reserved for supercombatants and the heaviest of thugs. This tends to be high risk high reward (albeit some supercombatants are tailor made for this), but losing is generally catastrophic since you also lose all the gear your unit has. Furthermore - a skilled player moving a large force around a second nation (who has access to supercombatants) will plan for it. So for example - if you take a Musphelheim Wight Titan 20% Regen Larger Bless (dormant), it's going to be fairly obvious what you're doing and players will plan around it (that doesn' | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Hammers, | ||
| + | Three features that define a lot of thug-related play are | ||
| + | * Hammers ??Dwarven Hammer?? | ||
| + | * Units with the trait Forge Bonus (reduces gem cost = to bonus) e.g. ??Master Smith?? | ||
| + | * To a lesser extent, the site, ??The Steel Ovens??. This is a one per map site however so it is not reliable. It is significant enough a bonus however to mention. | ||
| + | |||
| + | The former two are reliable ways of reducing the gem cost of items. Although they reduce an item by a ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | The dwarvern hammer costs 15 gems. It essentially ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | Generally - 5 gem items are sufficiently good that getting lots of them cheaply is valuable. The best of these is the Greatsword of Sharpness. With a hammer, these cost 3 gems, and can make a unit incredibly high damage and give it ARP (with a goodly bonus to atk and def). Obviously - the 2 gems saved don't care if they' | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====how natural protection / invulnerability and armour stacks===== | ||
| + | * [[https:// | ||
| + | * [[https:// | ||
| + | |||
| + | The exact formulae for protection calculation are linked above. However a quick and dirty formula is find the larger number of the two - then divide the smaller one by two and add it. For final values under 30 you can add 1. | ||
| + | * For example, at 20 Armor and 10 natprotection, | ||
| + | * That exact example is 25, but with 11 natprot or 21 armor it becomes 26 (right on the threshold). | ||
| + | |||
| + | Alternatively - you can use the actual maths (in the linked articles), or the protection table (second linked article) to calculate it exactly. | ||
| + | |||
| + | Invulnerability works similarly to natural protection. If it is higher that natural protection and the unit is hit by **Non-Magic** weapons it will apply. It does not stack with natural protection, and it does nothing if natural protection is higher or if hit by magic weapons. Two quick examples | ||
| + | |||
| + | **A lich with barkskin (10 natural protection 25 Invulnerability, | ||
| + | * A magic weapons attack. The protection scores used would be 10 (natural protection) and 17 (armor) | ||
| + | * A non-magic weapons attack. The scores used would be 25 (invulnerability) and 17 (armor | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | **A Berserk ?? | ||
| + | * A magic weapons attack. The protection scores used would be 31 (natural protection) and 0 (no armor) | ||
| + | * A non-magic weapons attack. The protection scores used would be 31 (natural protection) and 0 (no armor) | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Anti-Demilich Strategies===== | ||
| + | So the ?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | * **??Curse?? variants.** Essentially - if the demilich is cursed it will accrue afflictions. They all reduce its effectiveness, | ||
| + | * **Magic phase a fort under it.** If a demilich gets teleported onto a fort - it can be quite hard to get it off. Typically, a player has to use a remote attack on their own demilich and kill it (and hillariously - the demilich being tough to kill often makes it hard to kill with remotes). Even if not a permanant solution, this is a passable one (and also protects the troops that would be inside | ||
| + | * < | ||
| + | * < | ||
| + | * **Banishing to the shadow realm**: ??Infernal Prison?? and ??Claws of Kokytos?? are passable short tetm solutions | ||
| + | * **Soul Slay:** Although hard to pull off due to the mage volume required (and likely sacrificed) and the high MR of the demilich (plus it being somewhat predictable for an astral nation) - this kills the Demilich for good (well until they call god it back up at least) | ||
| + | * **Sic the demilich player on someone else** Not really a solution but Diplo can mean someone else suffers the demilich for a while | ||
| + | * **Set up a dramatic line to pop the enemy capital** With the capital gone - the demilich dies for good. If you can pull off some sort of one turn siege shennanigans line (very hard to do most of the time), and win the combat, the cap will be taken and the demilich will die for good. Remember, you have to ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====GEAR COMBO==== | ||
| + | ??Sword of Sharpness?? + ??Main Gauche of Parrying?? (Def Thug only E items??) TODO (Hannibal) | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====Sacred Thugs (not supercombatants) - Relevant Incarnates===== | ||
| + | In descending order of relevance | ||
| + | * **??Fire Shield??** - This provides a defensive chassis with a kill mechanism. This allows quite a few units that otherwise couldn' | ||
| + | * **??Awe??** An exceptional Thug bless - as attacks negated by awe don't harrass a unit, so this lets a defender ' | ||
| + | * **??Stygian Skin??, ?? | ||
| + | * **??Hard Skin??, ?? | ||
| + | * **?? | ||
| + | * **?? | ||
| + | * **??Fear?? / ??Dread??** Generally too expensive to be good on thugs, these are technically kill mechanisms (and have historically been combo' | ||
| + | * **?? | ||
| + | * **?? | ||
| + | * **?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====An Example of a big incarnate thug==== | ||
| + | **MA Eriu - Medium to Heavy Thug (Gearless) 1-2 Gems - Sidhe Lord - Ench3 Alt1 - Bless = Awe/Fire Shield/ | ||
| + | |||
| + | //This works because of the layering of defenses. The Sidhe lord has a high defense score to begin with. Then it casts Shroud of Displacement, | ||
| + | |||
| + | // | ||
| + | |||
| + | ??Sidhe Lord?? | ||
| + | No Gear | ||
| + | ??Personal Regeneration??, | ||
| + | =====Sacred Thugs - Incarnateless===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====Self Buffs and Mounts===== | ||
| + | Importantly for cavalry thugs - self buffs spread to thugs. So ??Personal Barkskin?? will affect the mount and the rider - as will ??Shroud of Bewilderent??, | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Casting Mechanics - fancy shennanigans===== | ||
| + | If you have a spell set to cast in your initial script - it is prioritized in the units combat script when casting after t5. This is relevant when thugs need to do hyper-specific things. For example, a LA Zematia Fire Shield Thug may want ??Healing Touch?? in its script - because when cast - it heals both the high armor rider and the mount for a considerable amount - whilst fire shield is doing the damage. | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====Carrying a gem or two on a thug===== | ||
| + | This is one of the most overlooked things in thug building. Holding a gem or two can completely reshape a thug. Whether it be a N1 mage casting ??Personal Regeneration??, | ||
| + | |||
| + | Generally however since gems are expensive, this is reserved for multiplicative spells like the above - which add additional layers of defense. It's generally a little wasteful to spend a gem on an additive bonus. | ||
| + | |||
| + | =====Magic Phase + Stealthy Units / Mages===== | ||
| + | Expand but as described. A good trick to ' | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | =====Army Thug - LA Agartha Blindfighter===== | ||
| + | |||
| + | **LA Agartha 5 gem Blindlord army thug** | ||
| + | |||
| + | //I can't remember who popularized this - but the idea broadly was a GSS ?? | ||
| + | |||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * ?? | ||
| + | * Hold Hold attack closest (hold attack on blindfighters) | ||
dom6/guides_and_player_improvement/strategy_articles/thugs.1784636547.txt.gz · Last modified: 2026/07/21 12:22 by cybertron2